Episode Transcript
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to We Are Chaffe's Looking Upstream, a conversational podcast of community, humanness and well being rooted in Chaffee County, Colorado. I'm Adam Williams. Today I'm talking with Angie Jensen. We've got some through lines of positivity, courage and gratitude, and we talk about challenging paradigms and conventional thinking and rules. Angie is a rule questioner and I dig it. You gotta know by now that I've asked a lot of whys and I've tweaked some authorities in my time, as I'm sure some of you have. And really a good number of guests on this show probably have too. So I love this kind of conversation with someone of like spiritual Angie was brought up in the Mormon Church and when she was a young woman she sought excommunication. She went after excommunication from the church, even insisted upon it. We talk about why she felt that was necessary and about the formal exit interview, so to speak, that she went through to make it happen. We talk about her 20 plus years of solo international traveling. As Angie says, that's where magic occurs. We talk about how that traveling also has influenced her spiritual growth, including a revelatory experience that occurred for her while at a Buddhist monastery in Sri Lanka.
Angie and I also talk about her years as a wildland firefighter working on Hell Attack and Hotshot Crews, including A Season Down Under. She became a tree activist along the way and has been an entrepreneur and advocate for the forest for more than 20 years now. We also touch on the community of small footprint houses that Angie built, the Pontchacrest Cabins, which don't, you know, ruffled some feathers, she says. The Looking Upstream podcast is supported by Chaffey County Public Health and the Chaffey Housing Authority. Show notes with photos, links and a transcript of the conversation are published at we arechafypod.com where you also can subscribe to the monthly newsletter. You can see more photos and connect with the podcast at. We are chafypod on Instagram.
All right, now here we go with Angie Jensen.
[00:02:22] Speaker B: When I was introduced to you a while back, a couple of things stood out to me and one of them was this effervescent positive energy that you have. And that's how you greeted me this morning. And I want to tell you it feels good to be around you and I wonder how you feel. Is that something that you realize you convey? Is that how you see yourself as this happy, positive, smiley, laughing person?
[00:02:43] Speaker C: I do. So this obsidian I hold in my hand as we speak is to soak up any negative Energy.
So the negative energy, as we all, as human beings have, inevitably, yeah, it doesn't serve. It doesn't serve me personally. And so, yeah, I've always been known as the smiley girl. Even when I pick up the phone and I'm not smiling, my voice is different. And people are like, what's wrong? And I said, well, I'm just not smiling, so my voice is different, but I'm happy. I love life. So thanks for noticing that.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: Well, I think it's hard not to notice it and not to feel it. And if I'm really honest with myself and about myself, that's not how I see myself. Like, I'm not this smiley, whatever sort of person. I'm always thinking. Some people might even think, oh, I'm brooding. I'm always in my head. And to some extent, that's probably true. And so there's part of me that kind of wishes, oh, there's maybe a little bit more of that energy because it does feel good to be around.
[00:03:53] Speaker C: Oh, thank you. That feels heart.
[00:03:57] Speaker B: That obsidian. Do you carry that in your pocket all the time?
[00:04:00] Speaker C: Not all the time, but it's in my pocket right now, mainly because I'm nervous about the podcast.
[00:04:05] Speaker B: I was just going to ask if that's why you're holding it in your hand and kind of.
[00:04:08] Speaker C: Okay, here it is.
[00:04:09] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:04:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:04:10] Speaker B: Well, let's go further here. Let's jump into your story. I've learned that you grew up Mormon, and that's not the case now. That means something happened along the way. You described it as excommunicating yourself. So it feels to me like we've got a lot of story there. Why don't we start with that and then we'll move forward, because.
[00:04:30] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: You've got a lot.
[00:04:32] Speaker C: That's a big story for me. When you grow up in a paradigm and a belief system, because your family, that's your family, right? Your parents and you grow up in it, and it's. It's a part of who you are. And then when I moved away from this little utopia Pleasantville of Idaho that I grew up in, and it was a beautiful, beautiful place, and I have a lovely family, my parents are amazing. So the blessings of that time frame is indeed, I give gratitude for that. But as I moved to Colorado and started to experience in a different manner, I realized that's not my spirituality. And so the beautiful part about, I think, the point in my life where I decided to leave the church, and the church is kind of what they call it, the. With the capital T. It's interesting, but that's just how they do it. But I decided I didn't want to just leave. I wanted to go through the process of actually excommunicating myself, which was not well accepted from the Mormon Church. They just said, well, you just can go, you don't have to come to church. You can just distance yourself. I said, no, I want to go through the process. Wow.
[00:05:58] Speaker B: So an official something.
[00:05:59] Speaker C: An official something which was, which was awkward. It was, you know, here I was a young 20, mid 20s and I sat in a series of interviews with men, you know, that are of the church and they literally had to interview me to get my name off the records. It's really interesting. They don't do that nowadays. It's pretty easy nowadays, but I guess this was in the time where I was one of the very few people that wanted and requested to be excommunicated.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: It's like a, it sounds like a very intense exit interview.
[00:06:43] Speaker C: It wasn't intense. You know, very intense.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: And were you sitting there alone? Was there anybody in support of you?
[00:06:48] Speaker C: Thanks for asking that. I was alone. It was just me. It was.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: Was that by choice of others to not be there and support you or were they not allowed?
[00:06:55] Speaker C: They weren't. That's just the process. You know, when you do your confessions through the Mormons, you do the same thing. You sit there and you do your confessions. Like probably a lot of religions have this. So I guess in a sense it was kind of that it was a little bit of a.
But you know, for me it was like this just doesn't resonate with me and I'm finding my own spirituality and I want a literal, clean break from it. Like the first 20, 25 years of my life, it served me, but like I want a foundation down to ground zero so that I can build up my own spirituality. And so this was an important process for me to go through.
[00:07:42] Speaker B: Literally when you mention confession, it's almost as if you're having to sit there with whatever size group of men and confess your sins and the reason you're wrong for wanting to leave their system.
[00:07:55] Speaker C: Exactly, yeah. So a little awkward, right?
[00:07:57] Speaker B: Did it feel intimidating?
[00:07:58] Speaker C: It feels intimidating. Uh huh, absolutely. Yeah, I'm sure it was very intimidating. But you know, like powerful. On the other hand, because I like, it felt empowering to me to make that clean cut and to leave on a decision. And this is a time too when I didn't know a single other person that has ever done this in my community in the Mormon community. Like I didn't know anyone that had excommunicated themselves.
So usually an excommunication is brought onto people as kind of a punishment. No one asks to be.
[00:08:43] Speaker B: To be punished.
[00:08:44] Speaker C: To be punished, right. To be in their quote, unquote punishment. But so for them it was just a weird concept to have someone ask for excommunication. But that's what I wanted because I truly, truly needed that for my personal self.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: There's clarity in it.
[00:09:03] Speaker C: Thank you. Yes, there's clarity.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Did you feel, I imagine you were nervous at the very beginning. So did you feel yourself, your confidence kind of building as you were going through this conversation, this exit interview, so to speak, and finding that power? You're like, I'm doing it, I'm actually doing it and I'm going to get through this.
[00:09:20] Speaker C: I think the confidence came a little bit more after, when I was starting, you know, because after I went and stayed at a Buddhist monastery in Sri Lanka and that was lovely. And you know, I just kept getting reaffirming situations that said I did what was right. That felt good to me. So the confidence came after. It was nerve wracking at the time.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: It seems like a very courageous and bold and difficult and scary and just all the things kind of experience, especially at your young age. Very lonely.
[00:09:55] Speaker C: Very lonely. Yeah. And so that was the thing too. None of them in my family, no one in my community, I'd never heard of this excommunication thing. And it's interesting because, you know, a decade later I have found actually quite a few people in Salida that have left the Mormon Church. And it's interesting because I'll sit with them and I'll talk and I'll be like, well, what's your story? How did you do it? And so there's actually a pretty big community here of people that have once again, not really gone through that process because nowadays you could just go to a website, mormonnomore.com you put your name in and they legally have to just get your name off. So you don't have to go through the interviews. You don't do any of that scenario, which is, yeah, a lot, obviously.
[00:10:50] Speaker B: Why is it important to the church to have the names removed officially from whatever roles or roster they keep? Like, why is that the thing of this?
[00:11:01] Speaker C: Well, obviously they want numbers, right? Cause the more numbers they have in the church, the more they.
It's a support group for each other, so they don't want your name.
[00:11:11] Speaker B: Are we talking about tax benefits or are we talking about Just branding and marketing. Oh, we have this many million followers. Like what? As if it's a social media account, right?
[00:11:22] Speaker C: I wonder.
I think it is more of a. Yeah, that's a good point. Just, you know, we have this many people in our church, which is different about the Mormon Church because you have to be baptized, quote unquote to get your name on right. And then the excommunication is what takes your names off. So they could baptize people once and then that person maybe doesn't come to church ever and it doesn't matter. They're still using that as their numbers to say how big their church is.
So I think it is kind of a numbers game possibly.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: Okay, I want to hear more about Sri Lanka and this Buddhist monastery. How long after you left the church did you go to Sri Lanka?
[00:12:13] Speaker C: Yeah, I went to Sri Lanka. Hard to remember, but maybe a year after I left the church. And so I was with some young monks and I was just there as a volunteer and I. One of the confirmation moments of my life that I made the right decision was I was sitting in the monastery and the monks started to do their chanting and I remember getting the goosebumps right, that really. The hair standing up and feeling this spirit. And I said, wait a minute, I can't feel this spirit here. This only belongs to the Mormon Church. What am I doing? I'm feeling this like connection to the spirit. And I'm in a Buddhist monastery, like, and that was very confusing to me, but also confirmation of like, oh yeah, God is too big for just one religion. And that seems common sense. And now to me at age 47, that's obviously common sense. But to a young 25 year old that grew up in the church and didn't know anything different, that was a big move. You know, that was a big scenario. You do you. When you grow up with a belief system, it's. It's hard to like exit that and do something totally different. We all know this.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: People of all ages, if they have not ever left that system that was passed down maybe from their parents, maybe from their grandparents, like on and on and on, they've just taken. It's sort of entrenched in their under blood at this point. Right. And if people don't ever question that and they don't ever get out and experience these other things, I think it's very easy, regardless of age, to just assume that everything you've been told, this is the way, this is the only way you're going to connect with your faith, your Spirituality with God, with that community. So, I mean, that's not surprising at all that there was confusion for you in that, especially at that younger age.
[00:14:25] Speaker C: Absolutely. And that, you know, getting out world travel has been my book to learn from. And I've traveled internationally every year mostly since, you know, the age of 20 ish. So world travel and just seeing things in different people, in different ways, different cultures. And I had the ability to do that just because I've had. I haven't had family and, you know, commitments and I work a seasonal job and so I've been able to do every year at least a month or two of travel internationally. And that's been just a part of who I am. But, yeah, I wish everyone could have that experience. To see the world in real life, not just through social media or news media, but to actually experience a new culture.
[00:15:21] Speaker B: Was your family, well, your family and friends, anybody and whoever you wanted to maintain contact with from the church when you left, was that possible or was there sort of an official line of we don't talk to this person anymore. She's disavowed everything we believe. She's no longer one of us, no longer accepted. Like, do you have those relationships still or did you have to sacrifice that?
[00:15:42] Speaker C: Yeah. So my parents, my family, they're lovely. Lovely. And so they.
No, they did not disown me. We still have a great relationship. It's awkward. They won't talk about it. I'll sit down and try to have our conversation about it, but they won't.
[00:16:00] Speaker B: About your having left?
[00:16:01] Speaker C: Yes, about me having left. And they won't go there. So, in fact, my parents were just here a couple weeks ago and it was their anniversary. It was 56 years. And I wanted to do this cute little ceremony for them. So I had a little altar with their wedding pictures and I was going to do a little meditation and do a little plant essences and just kind of fall into like this what I would think in my new spirituality, a special place. And it was really awkward because they wouldn't even, my dad, my mom did, just to keep the peace, but they wouldn't even come into my little space that I created. And you know, what came to my thoughts after that is, you know, I spent 25 years in their spirituality and they couldn't even spend one hour in my spirituality. So that hurts.
But despite that, they're lovely and we still have a good relationship. We just can't go in the spiritual route. We can't go there because it's uncomfortable for them.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: Doesn't that probably bleed over into so many other things about how you view the world or think about it or. I don't know if it's necessarily values, but it could be. Like, doesn't that end up extending to so much else?
[00:17:32] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
And now that I. Oh, I study it 12 hours a day. I study different spiritualities and what it all means, and it bleeds. Yeah. I try to let it bleed into my life. And, you know, going back to what you said at the beginning of this conversation, like, why do I feel happy and why. You know, it just feels good because I'm living my truth.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: Did it feel that way before you left the church?
[00:18:00] Speaker C: Yeah, because that was my truth at that time.
[00:18:03] Speaker B: Okay, so you've always been this happy, positive energy.
[00:18:06] Speaker C: I always have been. And, you know, even though that spirituality no longer served me at a certain time in my life, but, like, when I was going through it, I was in it and I loved it. And it did create this. This comfort and security for me. And I was part of a community, part of a family, so it was lovely. It's not like the church did something bad and, like, I needed to leave it because they did something bad. That did not occur to me at all. It was. I respect it even to this day. But there is just a point in my life where I'm like, this doesn't belong to me. This is my parents.
I want something that belongs to me. So that was. Hence the excommunication and starting my own spiritual path, which is no path. Right. Like, I'm not a Buddhist. I didn't join.
[00:18:58] Speaker B: It's an openness.
[00:18:59] Speaker C: It's an openness. And I. So I'm unique. I don't. No one else on the face of this earth has the same spiritual path as I do. But I couldn't say the same. You know, 25 years ago when I was in the Mormon, like, there is millions of people that have that exact same spirituality, and they all believe the exact same thing. But now I'm open.
And the beautiful part is, like, I can believe something today and know that in five years, my belief can change. And I can go into a different scenario, which when I was Mormon, you can't do that. Like, this is the belief, and this stays the belief to the end.
[00:19:44] Speaker B: Right?
[00:19:45] Speaker C: And so it's not fluid.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: There's a rigidity to the dogma.
[00:19:50] Speaker C: Very rigid.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: And if we are part of that, then we have to embrace it. There's no flexibility. There's no ability to do what we might call for politicians A flip flop. It's like, well, as we grow as human beings. Sure. Shouldn't I be open to the prospect of learning something more, growing, seeing in a new way? You know, we need to allow that, I think, for all of us, rather than condemn it.
[00:20:13] Speaker C: I think so. It's a beautiful path, but it's scary, Right. Because then you're vulnerable and there are.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: No answers because there are no dogmatic rules.
[00:20:20] Speaker C: Totally. And it's so much easier when someone else can tell you what eternity means.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:20:27] Speaker C: Versus thinking for yourself and all of the things.
[00:20:30] Speaker B: Right. So there's so much comfort in certainty.
[00:20:33] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: Whether that's good, bad, right or wrong. If somebody, If I can just have some daddy, tell me this is the way it is. These are the punishments, these are the rules. This is how everything works. Right. I think that's why so many people gravitate to these things, whether it's religious or if it's political or it's whatever the social rules and norms are. I think that's where a lot of people find comfort, is because someone is giving them a certainty whether it's good or not.
[00:20:58] Speaker C: Exactly. And I think a big part of when I left the church, I said, from here to this day forward, I will choose for myself to not be a part of a group. So rather that is political, religious, cultural, like to be in a group where someone else speaks or talks for you or to be in a belief system where we believe this.
So hence I find myself very, very, very apolitical. Right. I just don't go there because I don't want to be in a box again. And I don't want to create that where I can't think for myself. So the beautiful part is like, okay, now I can go within myself, mull it over. Does that feel good? Does that feel bad? You know, and then go by my own intuition, my own knowing versus, like, what the group has to say.
[00:22:04] Speaker B: I think there's less interference of the ego in that way too. Because you've already opened yourself to being wrong, to being able to change, to just be open to something different than what you were five minutes ago. Right. And a lot of times it's our ego that also adheres to these rules, that, no, I have to be right in this way. I cannot change because then I don't know, I'm a fool, I look bad, people think less of me. All the ways that our ego interferes, I think having openness being, whether it's apolitical or a. Whatever the word might be, if we're not trying to fit into some box, then we're allowed the possibilities of everything.
[00:22:43] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. And so in saying that my current paradigm is trying to kind of leave my little box of academia. Right. So, like, this is my current leap of faith. You know, like, I had that first section of my life. First 20 years was religion, and then I went to university and I was in a career and very much had academia at my side. And then now I'm trying to jump into a whole different vibe of my life where there's a little more esoteric, a little more magic, a little more spirituality and openness and flow and just seeing things differently. So this is a whole different paradigm shift in this current stage in my life, which is really, really, really fun to play with.
[00:23:42] Speaker B: Have you ever thought that you were born at the wrong time or born into the wrong family or something because of being. I mean, sometimes we refer to people as black sheep. I guess it's a common enough idea to be different than those who are bringing you up and you're like, how did I fit in there? Like, I live differently, I think differently, but occasionally I encounter somebody who's also like, I really think I was from, like, 200 years ago. That's where I fit in, you know? Like, have you ever thought in the way that you live, being so different than those other people who shaped you early on? Maybe, I don't know, like, you're from another time.
[00:24:19] Speaker C: Right? Right. Yeah. No, I think I'm so thankful for the exact, exact path I've had for, you know, the time, space, energy. I think everything has flowed so perfectly in my life, and I have. Yeah, I've had a blessed, blessed life. So I guess I don't ponder or wish I had anything different than what. Yeah, my current existence.
[00:24:50] Speaker B: It would be hard for you to be so positive and grateful in life. Right. If you were having to question, oh, am I in the right place?
[00:24:55] Speaker C: Right.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: Am I in the right body? Am I in the right experience?
[00:24:58] Speaker C: Right. I think so, yeah. Yeah. I'm full of gratitude. Right. Like, that feels really good to me of everything.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: I want to hear more about the travel because that's been important to me as well. And for the last, you know, nearly 30 years of traveling the world and being open to those possibilities of this is how different people do things. And it's also what we have in common. You know, you get to learn it all. I'm curious maybe some of the other experiences or places you've been that come to mind or really that you've held Onto over the years is, wow, that was a really life changing moment when I learned X lesson, you know?
[00:25:34] Speaker C: Mm. Yeah. So once again, I've traveled every year internationally for, oh gosh, probably 23 years now because I do get my winters off. So I've been able to travel and I've always traveled solo. It's just recently that I'm now traveling with other people. But.
And what that looked like as a solo female traveler internationally at a time when there was no phones. Right. Like now everything's online and it's actually harder for me to navigate the international travel. But when I went and traveled, I would show up at an airport and then literally go off of energy and magic and things just unfolded perfectly. It seems like with every one of my travels. And then somehow I would get hooked up with a volunteer spot or sometimes I was doing the.
Where you go and farm. I forget what it's called. Woofing, I think, which is where you go and work on farms and you meet people from all over the world. Sometimes it was a spiritual pursuit.
But the point is, when I got to travel, that was where magic occurred because I didn't know where I would be sleeping that night. I didn't know, you know, who I would meet. When you're traveling solo, you put yourself out there and you meet people, you're in a vulnerable state. But I've never had like a night where I couldn't find someone to host me or take me in or give me a ride somewhere. So it was really magical. And that was.
I think that was a big part of my spiritual growth, is trusting and just going with the flow.
[00:27:35] Speaker B: There's so much confidence that can be gained when you allow yourself to be open, maybe bold, not try to control it all and then allow room for serendipity to bring it together. And you meet amazing people and you meet amazing opportunities.
[00:27:48] Speaker C: Yeah, it's like living a whole new world. Right. Then I come back to my everyday world where schedules are obviously planned and stuff. But yeah, I think if everyone can put themselves in this state of being in state of existence with not knowing where you're going to sleep for the night, it's a powerful spot of growth. And you realize there's people out there that are incredible and there's people out there and there's magic that keeps surrounding you and protecting you. So once again, just growth opportunities. And I've been lucky enough in my life to have that because I know a lot of people don't get a chance to travel. So it's really blessed.
[00:28:35] Speaker B: I know that one of the experiences you had abroad was in Australia when you were a wildland firefighter, which you were for around what, five years?
[00:28:43] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:28:44] Speaker B: Total. But there was a season that you went to Australia for that?
[00:28:47] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:28:48] Speaker B: I'm curious about that piece of your experience because I remember in college knowing a guy who had become a smokejumper. I was curious and interested in that. I never, I don't even remember the reasons, but even pursued, I never started with firefighting. So it certainly was not going to make it to smokejumper. I think you became a hotshot, right?
[00:29:10] Speaker C: Mm mm.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: Can you tell me first of all what that means is that in some relation to smokejumping, like what are the different roles, how does this work and what did that play in your life for five years of doing this work?
[00:29:23] Speaker C: Yeah, five years. This was straight out of university and I worked for the forest service. And so there's different aspects of firefighting, wildland firefighting, and this was quite a while ago, so I'm going by memory. But there's ingen, which I did one year. There's hand crew, there's helattack and there's hotshot and then smoke jumping kind of being the quote unquote, most elite. But basically there are ways, different modalities of getting you back into the woods to fight fire. And helitack is where we would work. With the helicopter, we'd repel close near to the fire so that we could hike in and get the fires when they're small. And so the two helicopter transportation and then with the smoke jumpers is planes. They jump with parachutes.
[00:30:22] Speaker B: How high are they when they jump out?
[00:30:24] Speaker C: You know, I don't know the answer to that exactly. With helitack and repelling, you got, you know, the rope needs to touch the ground obviously, so you've. And I can't even remember the distance there. But in Australia what they did is because we were more in the outback and so they would just hover over the ground and you would have a five foot jump. So it wasn't a big deal. You didn't repel. But here in the States, because we were fighting up in Idaho, you would need to repel because of the trees and the terrain. So there's not places that a helicopter can land. So that's why you repel in there.
[00:31:07] Speaker B: You might have a hundred foot rappel or something out there.
[00:31:10] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And I. Once again, I can't remember the distance, but yeah, that was super fun. And oh my God. And I was in the Frank Church wilderness in Idaho. And that's where I did my helitack tour.
And yeah. Then a couple years after that, my Australia tour, fighting fires up there. So, yeah, really fun. And got to see some amazing places and meet some pretty great people.
[00:31:41] Speaker B: Had you been wanting to make a career of this? No.
[00:31:44] Speaker C: That was once again magic. That just. It came about.
My internship was the Forest Service. And then somehow I got into the fire scene and then it just kind of spring loaded from there and.
But yeah, it's not really something I was planning on doing.
[00:32:05] Speaker B: I think this factored into something else that stood out that first time I was introduced to you not long ago. Right. And I said, oh, you're so happy and joyful. The other thing was you described yourself as a tree activist. And I think there's a correlation here between what you're saying working with Forest service, being a hotshot. So tell me more about how that transition then out of firefighting and into being a tree activist happened.
[00:32:30] Speaker C: So, you know, firefighting is amazing. It's super fun. But there's the. But you sit around a lot. So there's a lot of sitting and waiting for the fire. And to me, it got pretty slow. Like, I just want to be in the woods cutting trees. And you know, with firefighting, you have to literally sit around when a fire, when you get called to a fire. So it's, I would say, about 85% sitting around and maybe 15% excitements of actually being on a fire. So for me, it was a little too much sitting around. And so that's when I started the tree business to go cut trees. I just wanted to be out in the woods every day cutting trees. I didn't want to sit around the compound doing pushups.
So that was. That was what started my 19 year owning a tree service here in Salida.
Halfway through my tree career, I started to question a lot of the prescriptions, quote, unquote, prescriptions for the forest. And this kind of goes now back to what we were talking about before with the academia and the way that they prescribe forest health and what they.
They wish for our forest to look like. And halfway through, I just, I started.
This doesn't feel right. You know, the way they're thinning the trees and the way they're doing this wildfire mitigation, quote, unquote, didn't feel right. And so kind of like how I got a clean cut from the church, I wanted a clean cut from academia, and I wanted to go in and do things different. The prescriptions I gave for my clients were very, very different than what maybe the state forest service would prescribe.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: Can you elaborate on that a little bit so I can get clarity on what maybe was being prescribed and then how you felt? No, I think the solution is different in this way.
[00:34:45] Speaker C: Yeah, I think for me it was a lot of too much tree cutting. And they, you know, they're. There are prescriptions now, and this is. Now insurance companies have jumped on board, the county's jumped on board. But 100 foot defensible space, that's a lot of trees that get cut for a home site.
It doesn't feel good to me when all of these trees in our forests, well, first of all, you got the developments that happen, but then 100 foot clearing.
I mean, I'm a tree girl. So I really have questioned the paradigm of what they're doing by cutting all these trees. And the main reason is when I see the trees being cut, what grows up are the grasses and the weeds, the fine fuels. And the fine fuels that is way more flammable and can start a fire way easier than the trees. So I'm seeing a paradigm in my career where all the trees are getting blamed for the fire when it's the fine fuels. So when I bring this up and kind of question that whole narrative and that paradigm, which is what I've been doing with my tree activism, it's just like, why do we keep pinning the trees as the bad guys?
It's the fine fuels in our forest that oftentime carry the fire.
[00:36:21] Speaker B: Do you feel like that idea is just generally rejected or is there more conversation around it? Are they listening to you? Whoever they might be, yeah, whoever they.
[00:36:29] Speaker C: Might be, it is mostly rejected. And there's. There hasn't been a whole lot. Because once again, the paradigm for so long is when you think of a forest fire, you think of trees burning.
But you know, if you think about, okay, well, obviously we know that fire is a natural part of our system. Even when the trees do get burnt, like, you've got these snags and mother nature knows what she's doing. She's doing this for a reason. You have snag forest ecosystem, which is a whole different ecosystem than the live tree. But it's hard to get people when the professionals, quote, unquote, you know, of the forest service and state forest Service, and this whole paradigm is saying, cut your trees, cut your trees. And then I'm over here saying, let's think about this a little bit.
And so what's happening in our county is we have giant now swaths because money is. There's giant money in because everyone's scared of wildfire right now. So money, federally, state and local has been in the millions, has been now directed toward fire mitigation.
And a lot of people put fire mitigation equals tree cutting.
I am the like outside voice saying fire mitigation does not always equal tree cutting. Let's reconsider. Let's come back and think that's about re wetting our forests and our soils. Let's talk about, you know, the fine fuels and. But right now their current prescriptions are to cut trees and only to cut trees. And that makes me really sad because I go out to these sites and I see what's happening, especially on the sites that are just masticated and master, is when they take this big machine and literally just mow the tree down, mainly chew it up, chew it up. They're doing it in the pinyon juniper forest and they're not even taking the tree out for product. And it makes my heart so sad to see these prescriptions, quote, unquote, happening in our forest that do not feel correct at all. They felt really bad.
[00:38:56] Speaker B: Did this lead you to sell your business, which you did about a year and a half ago?
[00:39:02] Speaker C: I sold the business, which was. My business was fully private. I only worked with the private. I never did these prescriptions, these state forest service, these bigger prescriptions because once again, I didn't agree with them. They didn't feel good to me. But I sold the business. It was time. I loved what I was doing. But three employees had found some investors to buy it.
And it's interesting because they changed it when they bought it. And it's no longer. I think they are going for these bigger projects, which is kind of interesting because these are the bigger projects I'm trying to be an activist against. So it's a little bit of a paradox going on there. But life is funny and it has its flows. And I don't really know exactly what they're doing, but I think. I think they're.
They've folded a little bit of the business.
[00:40:02] Speaker B: So I'm curious about your decisions when you have moved on from the church. 20ish years. Sounds like you had the tree business 20ish years.
[00:40:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:13] Speaker B: I'm wondering about maybe the timing and flow and how you make decisions to say, you know what? I think I've had enough time with this experience. It's time to move on and how you have learned within yourself to Identify that moment and then identify what is the next experience?
[00:40:30] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, good question. I mean, it's, it's not overnight, but it seems as if it's been overnight with, yeah, you know, these two big things in my life. Leaving the church, then leaving my business, and then, okay, what's the next chapter? What's the next chapter in my whole scenario? And so I think that's where I trust the flow and something greater is out there that's prepping me for something. And I don't know what that is, but like, I thought it might be the tree activism, but that's kind of. It's been hard, it's been resisted. So maybe that's not it, but maybe that was even. That was prepping me for something else. I'm not quite sure.
[00:41:18] Speaker B: How do you tap into the intuition or spirit or whatever you refer to it as within yourself to say, I feel like it's time to leave this thing. I feel like this is emerging. Let me explore. I feel like this is the next thing. Let me move forward. Like, how do you feel, feel that within yourself? Because we're talking about, and earlier we were talking about an openness to experience and I use the word serendipity that connects us with things. And I think there is a spiritual sort of component that we tap into. Some might refer to it as intuition to follow our gut.
Do you have a sense of that through the practice over years of, oh, I'm getting that sensation again.
[00:42:02] Speaker C: Yes. Oh, you describe it so beautifully. Thank you. Yeah, I realized this is no longer my truth. Right. And so that's what happened with the whole tree work system and the whole tree work narrative. Like, the way it is happening is no longer my truth. So I don't like the prescriptions they're putting out there. So then I. But why is it no longer my truth? Because it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel right. It feels like there's something, you know, and the trees, the trees really do call to me. They really do talk to me. Like, I know that's woo woo and stuff, but. Because I've spent my whole career in the woods and I connect with them intimately.
Like they, they were calling me and saying, help us do something differently because.
So I don't know what that looks like. How do I help them do something differently? I try to get the word out. It's a little tough and it's been met with resistance. But, but you know, when you go off of, like you said, the intuition, the feeling, my truth Is that this doesn't feel right. My truth is that the forests, the Mother Nature is saying, hey, I know what I'm doing. I don't need to be fixed.
And this system is trying to fix me, quote unquote. But I sent beetles into my forest for a reason. I sent fire into my system for a reason. Like, please, please, please just trust me. I'm Mother Nature. I know what I'm doing. And so that in itself is very intuitive. Right. And it's very.
[00:44:03] Speaker B: And it happens over time. Like our time, human time. We live for 70, 80, 90 years and we act as if that is the entirety of all that matters. The universe is functioning on a billions of years long process. Mother Nature can take her time. It feels like time to us, it's nothing to her. Right. Because she has this perspective of billions of years we're talking about, or I did earlier, I referred to a lot of people's need, the perceived need for comfort through certainty, absolutes. And what you're describing and with feeling is there's an abstract.
We're having to sit and allow what we feel to unfold until there is clarity. When a lot of us feel like the only way to get clarity is to force it. Right. We have to say, this is like, this is the thing I want to achieve. I'm going to go after it with all my ambition and everything I can. I'm going to make this thing happen that feels comfortable to most people. And what you're describing as I ask you to elaborate on what is this intuition? How do you recognize it? And I'm realizing as you're answering me, that's a very difficult question to answer because it's abstract, it's uncertain. You're waiting for the feelings to reveal more clarity to you.
[00:45:21] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:45:21] Speaker B: And they will. But it can take time.
[00:45:23] Speaker C: It can take time. It takes quiet space inside yourself. So that's what feel, that's what Can I tell you about an experience that happened just the other day? Sure. I was in the woods looking at a prescription. We were going to do some tree work and the trees that were marked were supposed to be the trees that go. And I was there with a logger, super awesome guy. And he's a logger, Right. So he had this, you know, we're going out to look at this job, we need a bid on it. And as we walked across the meadow, as we started to walk up the hill, started to look at these trees, I picked up some feathers and I saw some animal beds.
And then I picked up some Rocks. And then I saw an owl sweep through the trees.
And through this whole time, I was kind of showing him these little gifts that I'm seeing that nature had as we were walking on an animal trail, trying to look at these marked trees. And when I said, did you see that owl?
He stopped and he said, angie, you are in a very different space than I am right now.
I said, oh, shoot, yeah, we're supposed to be looking at mark trees, aren't we? I'm like, sorry, I just. I can't help but to notice, like, the wildlife that's utilizing the space right now. He turned to me and said, we need a bell on this project, don't we? I said, yep.
And that is the magic. That's the intuitive. That's the feeling. And he was a logger guy. This isn't his normal way of thinking, but he could just feel the energy as we were out there.
And it was actually his suggestion. We need a bell on this. We can't disturb this ecosystem. And I said, correct. And so we walked back across the meadow, went to our tracks, looked back to where we were, and an elk was staring straight at us. And both of our hearts just, like, grew in this beauty, energy, of magic, of like he was the protector of this space and was giving us a message. And, you know, just those moments that you just realize how beautiful and, you know, it doesn't mean that someone else isn't going to come in and take the project, but, like, it's not going to be us.
[00:48:08] Speaker B: So you still are engaged in this. You've sold your business, but you are still engaged as a tree actor?
[00:48:13] Speaker C: Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, okay. I could say that. Yeah, big time. Because that's what I do. That's what I love, my forests. And once again, these prescriptions don't feel right to me.
[00:48:26] Speaker B: So I want to ask you about small footprint home building.
With a little bit of time we have left here, I do want to hear something about what you have done to build these small footprint homes in Poncha. Why? What goes into that? I think there's been some challenge in that process. Whatever you would care to share.
[00:48:49] Speaker C: So another thing that I've done, very outside the box that definitely challenged the paradigm is building these small footprint homes. There's five of them, and it's a little community. They're not. It's not a house and a picket fence house. It's their built in community. They're architecturally savvy. They're different.
Meaning it's not just a gray box.
It's funky.
[00:49:16] Speaker B: What is the size when we say small footprint?
[00:49:18] Speaker C: Yep. 460 square feet is what they are. So they're great for a single or a couple. So it's not for everyone, of course.
[00:49:27] Speaker B: We're basically talking about tiny homes.
[00:49:29] Speaker C: Yep. Minimalist homes. Yeah.
[00:49:31] Speaker B: Is there a reason you don't use tiny homes? Is that intentional that you say, oh, it's small footprint versus maybe the more common phrasing for people which are tiny homes, which might evoke a certain image of what that looks like on a trailer.
[00:49:43] Speaker C: Exactly. On a trailer.
[00:49:44] Speaker B: So yours are not on a trailer.
[00:49:45] Speaker C: These are stick built foundation. Yes.
[00:49:48] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:49:49] Speaker C: Yeah. So that's the tiny home. Yeah. Invokes trailers immovable. So these are homes, you know, just like any other house, but it's smaller and they go up instead of out. They're two stories. So once again, I'm a tree girl, so I wanted to preserve the landscape versus bulldozing everything and just putting up, you know, square boxes.
So I wanted the creativity and I was able to do that.
I kind of got in under the par before all the development and rules.
[00:50:23] Speaker B: But some people did not take well to your having done that. That's my understanding.
[00:50:28] Speaker C: Right, right. Yeah. Some people are very challenged by it because once again, puts them in a challenging position of like, oh, does that mean I should be living minimally? Does that mean I have too much stuff? And I think it kind of throws in a little bit of a trigger for some people. But it's interesting because it's like, well, this doesn't have to be for you.
[00:50:51] Speaker B: We are back to rules.
[00:50:52] Speaker C: Yeah, we're back to rules.
[00:50:53] Speaker B: So I'm hearing rules of church. We've got rules from the government in terms of the trees. We've got rules. Rules on home building, which of course, I really didn't leave enough time for this part of the conversation. We could be talking, and maybe ought to be talking much more about housing because it's such a significant issue here. So many people cannot afford to buy a home. And what you're talking about are solutions.
[00:51:17] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:17] Speaker B: For an awful lot of people. Maybe not for a family of four.
[00:51:20] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:51:20] Speaker B: But there are a lot of people here, seasonal workers and all kinds of people who could benefit from such a thing. And those rules, they got implemented after you did this. Maybe because you did this.
[00:51:34] Speaker C: Probably because I did this. Yeah. The county literally said this will never happen again.
[00:51:40] Speaker B: And why?
[00:51:41] Speaker C: Exactly. Why?
It's thinking inside the box, thinking outside the box. And why? Because it triggers some people to know that some People can live minimally and be happy with that. It's a trigger. So you just, you know, in the paradigm, we have these big homes and we get married and we have kids, but that's not. Things are changing. People aren't having kids and people are living smaller and people are traveling the world more. And so it's not. We don't need these big homes with big yards. Some people still choose that and that's fine. But what about the people that don't choose that? What about the people that just want to be small and want to live in community and want to like, interact with neighbors and have that space to do that? So that's what I tried to create and do. Very successful. There's not been a single month that, you know, those homes haven't been occupied.
[00:52:44] Speaker B: This is 10 years.
[00:52:45] Speaker C: About 10 years.
[00:52:47] Speaker B: I tend to advocate for reasonable thinking, reasonable solutions and on behalf of people compassionately. Right. Something I keep hearing from people in the home building space and those who are very much paying attention to the need for affordable housing here is that those rules are not allowing for simple, practical, reasonable solutions.
[00:53:08] Speaker C: Thank you. Yes.
[00:53:09] Speaker B: That's something you.
[00:53:10] Speaker C: I agree 100, 100, 100%. And building codes are getting stricter instead of allowing more for this. So that I think, yep, a little more freedom and flexibility for creativity and diversity in the developers. Let's diversify the type of developers out there.
Let's diversify that a little bit more.
[00:53:33] Speaker B: Angie, I think that courage is a through line and everything we've only touched on here about your story today. You know, the travel and the church and all the decisions and the way you, you lead your life and you're doing it for community with this home building and things like that. So I want to thank you for coming and sharing a bit of that courage with all of us. I really appreciate again your positive energy and attitude and spirit. Thank you so much for this conversation.
[00:53:59] Speaker C: Blessings. Thank you. Thank you.
[00:54:09] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to We Are Chaffey's Looking Up Stream podcast. I hope that our conversation here today sparked curiosity for you and if so, you can learn more in this episode. Show notes at we are chafeepod.com if you have comments or know someone in Chaffey County, Colorado who I should consider talking with on the podcast, you can email me at Adam at we are chaffeepod.com I also invite you to rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or whatever platform you use that has that functionality. I also welcome your telling others about the Looking Upstream podcast help us to keep growing community and connection through conversation. Once again. I'm Adam Williams, host, producer and photographer. John Pray is engineer and producer. Thank you to CAHIN 106.9 FM, our community radio partner in Salida, Colorado, and to Andrea Carlstrom, Director of Chaffey County Public Health and Environment, and to Lisa Martin, Community Advocacy Coordinator for the We Are Chafee Storytelling initiative. The Looking Upstream Podcast is a collaboration with the Chaffey County Department of Public Health and the Chaffey Housing Authority, and it's supported by the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment's Office of Health Equity. You can learn more about the Looking Upstream Podcast at we are chafepod.com and on Instagram archafypod. You also can learn more about the overall We Are Chaffey Storytelling Initiative at we are chafee.org till the next episode. As we say it, we are Chaffey. Share stories, make change.
